History teaches prudent lesson on Pitt stadium. Hey Brian O'Neill

PG, April 4, 1999

Brian O'Neill Column

History teaches prudent lesson on Pitt stadium

"Pitt stadium will be razed..."

Sorry to see you feeding into the "done deal mentality." And, its nine-time national champions, not six.

Some of the mentions in the opinion article include:

• money corrupting games
• venerable structure
• tradition
• there was no innocent days of yore!
• obscure novel, Stadium, 1931

Listen:

1. Pitt Stadium was built with bonds. Big deal. Lots of businesses and buildings are built with bonds.

2. "The students, fervid old grads and townspeople who had nothing else to do, came to the stadium on Saturday afternoons, but seldom with enthusiasm."

   Yea. Yawn. So what is the point. The fans are not going to get excited when the home team losses all national significance. This is a timeless understanding. People would rather win than not.

Productive people don't spectate, they live

Pittsburgh should cater to the busy people in our communities, and not spectators anway. We, the citizens, want among other things, more spaces to engage with one another. These are high-level playgrounds. We like the idea of sports performance complexes, but they need to server citizens with much better cost/benefits.

One can live while in the role of a spectator too. In the stands one can build releationships. One can also appreciate a struggle of time, space and releationship in others, and learn for themselves.

Desirable for Bettering Releationships

Pitt needs students, old grads and idle townspeople to come to its campus on Saturdays. Pitt does not need empty seats on the North Side on Saturdays.

The Game and the Process of Games

The NCAA handbook has swelled in size from the times of Sutherland. Pay to players was not formalized in scholarships as it is today. Pay to players is nothing new. Scholarships of this era are under the table too, as they are not out in the open. Ask a coach or the athletic department to publish their scholarship levels telling who is funded and to what level. Ask a baseball coach, or a sports coach with another cap on scholarships if those numbers are public knowledge, and they are not. There are privacy reasons, sure. But todays ills are the same as those of the past. Scholarships are given and taken in an under-the-table maner as they are not out in the open. These scholarships are formalized and legal documents, but are not out in the open on the top of the table for sure.

Purity

Who said anyting about being pure? Why not argue and refute virginity as a reason to raze Pitt Stadium. The Brian goes on to write, "Better players engorged the stadium." Snicker. Seems you do have a dirty thought -- engorged!

Beano Cook

Beano is a pigskin prognosticator of national stature, and that makes him a gambling advocate, in turn less pure, in turn of under-the-table transactions. To say what Beano says is anything but a "gambling" perspective is unwise. If Beano says Pitt should move to the new Steelers stadium, I'm of a heart to say that the move should not happen all the stronger. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Just above you had a purity thread, and then below you switch to a source of the worst kind for purity.

Beano = Gambling
Gambling = Not Pure
Beano = Raze Pitt Stadium

I say do the inverse of what Beano says. For example: The CHOKE folks worked withing the system with the County Health Department to prohibit the opening of a new coke plant in Hazelwood. The Health Department uses consultants who are engineers who get paid by the polluters. Its the corporations that spend to keep their operations alive. Beano Cook is one of the polluters in sports today. His opinion has an inverse effect on what is right. He is biased won't say anything otherwise to go counter to the "done-deal mentality."

Same to with the PG. Thanks for helping in the arguements to keep Pitt Stadium.

Case in point: I've talked to a number of journalists and reporters in Pittsburgh in the past months. More and a couple have told me that they think that the closing of Pitt Stadium is a terrible idea. They are dead-set against it. However, they don't want to loose their jobs. They don't want to loose press-passes once the new stadium opens. They do not want to buck up against these vindictive leaders who are on the other side of the arguement.

Sad for them. Sad for us. Sad for my neighbors too.

---

Gambling Stinks

Think of it in a perspective of the definition of sports as advocated here. Sports are games of time, space and releationship. Gambling is not a releationship builder. Gambling is not a space sensative activity, as it happens around the world. And, gambling is not much of a time game either. Gambling is anti-sport as it sets out to lessen all values of the game, time, space and releationships. Gamblers can't even bet upon who is going to win -- there are "favorites" and they change the rules of the games themselves as a team can win by 2 points -- and not cover the spread. How defeating.

Gambling is not sports and it greatly hurts sports.

Tainted but Valid Somewhere

Beano is a Pitt grad. Beano is a friend of Pitt and Pittsburgh. Beano has many releationships that might have some roots due to sports. There is much to build upon there, to make a sports person's opinion ring true, but the tainting is going to take great amounts of drilling to get to the sports person within Beano.

Pitt's Athletic Slogan, branding, Commitment, Teamwork, Pride

Pitt's Athletic Slogan: Commitment, Teamwork, Pride

Commitment is needed to the spaces of Oakland. Commitment to listening is necessary. The athletic director needs a commitment to his role as a keeper of Pitt's sacred releationships.

Teamwork is needed between Pitt and our Pittsburgh citizens. Pitt has a poor record in teamwork.

Pitt is one of Pittsburgh's biggest players. If we were to make an illustration with a deck of cards and the card-game of bridge, Pitt and UPMC would be much like the Ace and King of Spades when it comes to our assets these days. There is no doubt that Pitt's star is burning brightly in these times, now overshaddowing the rest. In the game of baseball, the power-hitter of the line-up bats fourth and is affectionatly called the "clean-up hitter."

Without naming names, Pitt is pulling a Barry Bonds. Pitt is being a spoiled player who chokes in the big-games and cranks in the glory and successes when the game is already in the bag. Pitt's TEAMWORK, to use its own slogan against itself, sucks when it comes to the larger picture items in our community.

In the case of the LTV site and the building of the football practice compound, Pitt isn't needed. The developments at the LTV site is, as a basketball player might put it, a "slam dunk." The LTV site is going to be developed in seven years, says the URA Executive Director at a City Council meeting. Pitt can ride the bench at this game and Pittsburgh can still pull out a mighty victory. The LTV site can be a lock.

An official from UPMC, T.D., said at a South Side Steering Committee Meeting in January 1999 that other developers for the site are not going to be found. That miss-information can not be allowed.

What other players did not get to develop at the LTV site because of UPMC's and Oxford's arrival? The URA isn't going to case back-up plans and court developers for places already being developed. The URA puts all its eggs into one basket and gives the cold shoulder to others who might be interested in the site.

If asked, the URA won't have a clue as to who else might be possible developers and tenants for the LTV site, as in their mind the first best bet already got axed too, and that was River Boat Gambling. Well, if River Boat Gambling went sour, UPMC became part of the next best option. The trend is from sour to bland -- and we must go back to the drawing board and get what works and what was ordered.

At the initial news event, UPMC was to take nearly 30-acres of land at the LTV site. Now UPMC is going to get nearly 20 acres. The early projection can be called a speculative land-grab.

UPMC downsided the space plans by casting off the chaft. UPMC only needs to buy the most valuable spaces. The skinny, odd-shaped parcels of land that no developer would acquire are now worthless. No developer would want a tiny, odd-shaped spec of land that sits right next to UPMC as UPMC would be an overbearing neighbor.

At a public meeting, the developer of another portion of the LTV site, said something very interesting. His off-hand comments that came in the question/answer period of his presentation was at odds to what UPMC and the URA seem to say. The residental builder said that it would have rather have had a larger portion of the site to develop. He hinted at the fact that if more of the site was made available to his company, then they would certainly want to develop those sections as well.

An obvious alternative to the sale of land to UPMC for a football practice compound is a second sale of space to Contential. Perhaps more apartments can be built on the site, or perhaps a condo development can be built by the same company, and rather than all rental units, these units can be made available on a for-sale basis.

Sammy Sosa of the Chicago Cubs hit the ball and played a great teamwork game. is an ace in our is he greater good of Pittsburgh by tacking the bigger problems in our society. Teamwork isn't selfishness, and moving a football practice site to that prime river location is total selfishness displayed at its best. Pitt should not cash into a prime spot (such as is the case with the LTV site). Pitt wants to run the final yard and score the touchdown. Pitt can score big-time with a new complex on the river's edge of the Mon at the LTV site.

Pride is won and earned from respect, not acquired by bullies.

The past victories that served to buid Pitt Pride are feelings. Feelings can't be easily bulldozed into a new facility, such as the Steeler's New Three Rivers Stadium. As Pitt Stadium closes, so too goes the intangibles of Pitt Pride.

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Tweaking a development to placate special monied interests is the pathway to ruin.

Burt Out

Burnt Out

I want the stadium to stay more than anything, but ....

The administrators at Pitt won the battle and the war, as expected. They won due to attrition.

"I want the stadium to stay more than anything, but this has ruined other Student Government Body (SGB) projects, relationships with administrators, and almost friendships for me.

One student sighed for relief and wrote of life beyond SGB, "... with two other jobs where I put in about 6 hours a week at one and 12 at the other.

The students have classes, projects, and a double majors. One wrote, "I just can't do it anymore. Sorry."

Hold the phone: P-G Headline was Panthers see move as positive. But I didn't.

PG, March 22, 1999

Headline: Panthers see move as positive

by Shelly Anderson, Sports Writer

A piece of lined notebook paper was taped to Pitt Stadium door leading to the athletics department yesterday in large letters was a note to the athletic director.

"Hey Steve Pederson, Thanks for destroying our tradition and our football program, SOS."

The three letters at the end stand for Save Our Stadium, a movement among student groups who unsuccessfully lobbied against the Univ. of Pittsburgh's plan to raze the 74-year-old stadium and move home games to the North Side.

Note: The PG reporter made it seem as if Pitt Stadium was razed. Pitt Stadium still stands. The students were not unsuccessful in the lobby campaign just yet. And, the first three paragraphs have noting to do with any "POSITIVE" mention in the headline. The note might have been put onto the door by a football player. The headline should have been: Unknown football player thanks AD for destroying tradition and football at Pitt!

Inside the stadium, the Panthers were holding a makeup practice for one that got snowed out a couple weeks ago. The fact that this will be their final spring in Pitt Stadium apparently does not weigh on their minds.

Note: This is proof positive that the Pitt football team will NOT step foot inside of Pitt's indoor football practice facility, the Cost Center, to play football. To cancel a spring practice because of snow when an indoor facility is available is a strange occurrence. Interesting, the writer must have ESP to know that the issue does not weigh on the minds of the entire football team. How subjective. Snow comes to the South Side too. A late winter storm on the grass fields that are planned for the river-front property being raised out of the flood plain can not be pushed aside with snow removal equipment. The Pitt Stadium artificial truf was plowed, and the field was able to be used the following day. Practices would have needed to have been canceled for more than one week if the team was at the planned facility, because of the snow, wet ground and mud. The river bank lands that are going to host that fields might have terrible drainage. The team should not expect to use the fields in the South Side for spring football until finals week. Pitt's academic schedule has graduation in early May. Finals and preparation for finals are in full swing in April. Spring football so late in the semester is another hardship on the student athletes. Penn State has spring football starting as Pitts is ending.

"I think it is a positive move for the program," said sophomore linebacker Amir Purifoy. "Everyone can benefit from it -- everyone at the university.

"No one on the team has a big problem with it and, hopefully, recruits can be excited about the situation."

Note: It = silence. Everyone can benefit from silence. Everyone at the university (has been told to keep quiet. No one who wants to keep his scholarship on this team is going to have a big problem with keeping silent. Hopefully the recruits can be excited about the situation (as the players who are here now are not excited in the slightest.)

The players had a few days to digest the news. The Pitt board of trustees voted unanimously Thursday in favor of the plan, and university officials then outlined their intentions. A basketball arena, student housing and green space will replace the stadium.

Note: The players had a few days to digest the news, more if they read the student newspapers. The Pitt News scooped the PG at every turn.

Pederson and Coach Walt Harris later discussed the plan with the football team.

Note: Who, what, when, where, how, why, wow?

"They just said not to get wrapped up in the student fanfare -- that this is what's best for the program," receiver/punter Jay Junko said.

Note: The head coach and Athletic director said no to fanfare. Fans must not be important to Pitt football under these leaders. The AD and head coach told the athletes that your fellow students are not worthy of attention. They said don't build relationships with classmates. They said you are here to play football. They said keep quite. They said, we'll do all the thinking for you.

Althouogh the idea of the move has been controversial for several months, the players might be among the most understanding -- and trusting.

Note: Several months is wrong. In November the Athletic Director published other accounts that went counter to recent directions. The idea of razing Pitt Stadium had been mentioned for a few weeks. No controversial element was allowed to surface within the ranks of the Athletic Department. The players are understanding of who pays for their athletic scholarships. The football team, by NCAA regulations, is filled with 85 players who get full scholarships (room, tuition, board). Each scholarship is renewed on a year-to-year basis with each player. So, an athlete who speaks out of turn, misses the mark set by the coaches can not only get benched, but can lose his athletic scholarship. The frail position each athlete finds himself in as part of a NCAA football program make for slave labor situations with certain understandings understood --- hardly most understanding -- and trusting as described.

"I think the people in charge know what they're doing," said senior strong safety Seth Hornack, who thinks the resistance factor will die down."

Note: The Pitt Administrators ran a wear-them-down campaign and counted on the students to lose energy. They knew how to run a PR campaign.

"We've heard about this for a long time, and occasionally you'll see people wearing the T-shirts with 'SOS.' It would be nice to have the stadium stay on campus. It's sad to see it go. But once they see the new facility, they'll see what a nice thing it is for us."

Note: It would have been nice to have the stadium stay on campus. It is sad to see it go. Nobody has seen the new facility. The plans for the new facility are not done. It is foolish to go after two in the bush when one is in the hand. The decision to go to the new stadium should be made after the new facility is seen and known to work. The new stadium is a pipedream "nice." The existing stadium is a known "nice." The net gain is nothing.

Hornack won't get the chance to play in the new stadium. Many of his teammates will, and they're looking forward to it.

Note: What young person does not look forward to events in the future? Everyone on the team is looking forward to graduation day too. Of course people look forward, that is what people do.

"As far as the new stadium, for everyone who has a chance to play in it, it's exciting," said quarterback David Priestley, a transfer from Ohio State who is competing for the starting job.

Note: Duhh to Shelly, the writer. David, we'll be cheering for you.

"As far as tradition, I've been taught about that at Ohio State and I'm just learning about it here. But it's great that you can rebuild and play in a stadium like that."

Note: It is great that you can ... play in a stadium like Pitt Stadium. True? If you've been taught something about the college traditions at Ohio State, can you please share those with the Pitt leadership? It would be great if one can rebuild a tradition, but you can't.

Priestley has three years' eligibility at Pitt. He and other young players will compete in three home stadiums over the next three seasons --- Pitt Stadium this fall, Three Rivers in 2000 and a $233 million stadium to be built for the Steelers in 2001.

Note: Given the transfer from OSU, that counts as four stadiums for this athlete. Given the way the stadiums are being portrayed in the media, how about the: $16 Billion Pitt Stadium $700 Million Three Rivers Stadium, and the $233 million STEELERS stadium. Let's use inflation adjusted dollar values to 1999 settings and some cost benefit factors to account for the traditions, history, emotions and innate functionality. Once Pitt Stadium is close, razed (if ever) and needed again in a few years, how much is it going to cost Pitt to rebuild a Pitt Stadium on campus? Hospitals will have to be torn down, infrastructure will have to be rebuilt, new code changes are going to be in place. Other NCAA Division I programs made the same decisions, SMU and Univ. of Minnesota, to move off campus and play football games in pro sites, only to need to rebuild stadiums on campus years later. The above numbers are fictional, but an accounting of the cost of the associated stadiums would be welcomed by anyone interested in doing this analysis. For example, the RAD board has been putting $10M per year into Three Rivers Stadium for the past few years. Pitt Stadium got a $5.8 Million upgrade to the football training facilities in the past couple of years.

That doesn't seem to bother them.

Note: Editorial, not news.

"I think we're all pretty positive about it," said Junko, who redshirted last fall and has four more years to play.

"There's understandably a lot of nostalgia here, but football is football."

Note: A redshirt freshman is "pretty positive." Not so convincing. These players do want to keep their scholarships remember. The football is football statement is insightful. Football is a game of space, time and relationship. Pitt football played off campus in the Steelers stadium is going to hurt many relationships. Pitt football practiced off-campus is going to hurt many relationships student-athletes, and cause many troubles with their management of space and time. Football is football, and in no time frame should a team give away 4-miles of yardage. Home games at the Steelers stadium are going to be road games for Pitt players, Pitt students and everyone else except club-box owners. Football is football, and practices on the South Side for Pitt players are going to be another major waste of time for travel, and a poor utilization of space, given the 80-yard fields. The time, space and relationship factors for the UPMC football compound don't make sense for the student-athletes. The UPMC facility make sense for a few doctors who desire to hang out in secluded, river-view offices when they are not in surgery at a hospital elsewhere.

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PG Editors Shame

Shelly, the hope for you is that I'm going to assume that the above story assignment was a trap that the editors of the PG baited for you. That is my guess.

I'm sure that the PG sports and news editors do not have the guts to cover this story as it should be investigated and reported.

John Craig, we saw you on the Sunday Morning TV Interview show on KDKA with Pitt's Chancellor. All hopes were dashed after seeing your interview skills and follow-up questions that grey winter morning.

Pitt

Pitt's Athletic Slogan: Commitment, Teamwork, Pride

Commitment is needed to the spaces of Oakland. Commitment to listening is necessary. The athletic director needs a commitment to his role as a keeper of Pitt's sacred releationships.

Teamwork is needed between Pitt and our Pittsburgh citizens. Pitt has a poor record in teamwork.

Pitt is one of Pittsburgh's biggest players. If we were to make an illustration with a deck of cards and the card-game of bridge, Pitt and UPMC would be much like the Ace and King of Spades when it comes to our assets these days. There is no doubt that Pitt's star is burning brightly in these times, now overshaddowing the rest. In the game of baseball, the power-hitter of the line-up bats fourth and is affectionatly called the "clean-up hitter."

Without naming names, Pitt is pulling a Barry Bonds. Pitt is being a spoiled player who chokes in the big-games and cranks in the glory and successes when the game is already in the bag. Pitt's TEAMWORK, to use its own slogan against itself, sucks when it comes to the larger picture items in our community.

In the case of the LTV site and the building of the football practice compound, Pitt isn't needed. The developments at the LTV site is, as a basketball player might put it, a "slam dunk." The LTV site is going to be developed in seven years, says the URA Executive Director at a City Council meeting. Pitt can ride the bench at this game and Pittsburgh can still pull out a mighty victory. The LTV site can be a lock.

An official from UPMC, T.D., said at a South Side Steering Committee Meeting in January 1999 that other developers for the site are not going to be found. That miss-information can not be allowed.

What other players did not get to develop at the LTV site because of UPMC's and Oxford's arrival? The URA isn't going to case back-up plans and court developers for places already being developed. The URA puts all its eggs into one basket and gives the cold shoulder to others who might be interested in the site.

If asked, the URA won't have a clue as to who else might be possible developers and tenants for the LTV site, as in their mind the first best bet already got axed too, and that was River Boat Gambling. Well, if River Boat Gambling went sour, UPMC became part of the next best option. The trend is from sour to bland -- and we must go back to the drawing board and get what works and what was ordered.

At the initial news event, UPMC was to take nearly 30-acres of land at the LTV site. Now UPMC is going to get nearly 20 acres. The early projection can be called a speculative land-grab.

UPMC downsided the space plans by casting off the chaft. UPMC only needs to buy the most valuable spaces. The skinny, odd-shaped parcels of land that no developer would acquire are now worthless. No developer would want a tiny, odd-shaped spec of land that sits right next to UPMC as UPMC would be an overbearing neighbor.

At a public meeting, the developer of another portion of the LTV site, said something very interesting. His off-hand comments that came in the question/answer period of his presentation was at odds to what UPMC and the URA seem to say. The residental builder said that it would have rather have had a larger portion of the site to develop. He hinted at the fact that if more of the site was made available to his company, then they would certainly want to develop those sections as well.

An obvious alternative to the sale of land to UPMC for a football practice compound is a second sale of space to Contential. Perhaps more apartments can be built on the site, or perhaps a condo development can be built by the same company, and rather than all rental units, these units can be made available on a for-sale basis.

Sammy Sosa of the Chicago Cubs hit the ball and played a great teamwork game. is an ace in our is he greater good of Pittsburgh by tacking the bigger problems in our society. Teamwork isn't selfishness, and moving a football practice site to that prime river location is total selfishness displayed at its best. Pitt should not cash into a prime spot (such as is the case with the LTV site). Pitt wants to run the final yard and score the touchdown. Pitt can score big-time with a new complex on the river's edge of the Mon at the LTV site.

Pride is won and earned from respect, not acquired by bullies.

The past victories that served to buid Pitt Pride are feelings. Feelings can't be easily bulldozed into a new facility, such as the Steeler's New Three Rivers Stadium. As Pitt Stadium closes, so too goes the intangibles of Pitt Pride.

---

Tweaking a development to placate special monied interests is the pathway to ruin.

Interesting email from the NCAA

https://dystopia.4rs.org/ncaa-confirmed-issue/

Don't beat yourself!

Pitt's Problems are Pitt's Doings

Pitt want to buy a 18-acres site on the South Side and get itself into another land-locked position again. Why?

Pitt's move to the LTV site gives Pitt more of the same headaches it already has. The football fields don't fit. There is no elbow room within those 18 acres. The LTV site is a long-thin strip of property. A rail-road right of way pinches the space to the river's edge and there isn't suitable room.

The entire LTV site is 130-acres. Today, in its brownfield conditions with one ugly UPMC building in another parcel, the space looks big. But, the look is an illusion that is temporary.

The LTV site isn't as dense as Oakland, but it is tight. The apartments, the entertainment places, the other buildings are coming.

Face the Facts

The 18-acres of space UPMC wants to purchase is a long, thin strip of space, suitable for a bike path and a dog run. But this space isn't okay for football facilities. This space, for sure, is not suitable for TWO football facilities, as we'll be hearing in an effort to end-run the NCAA rules.

Pitt is going to go to lots of trouble to make two facilities, when one does not even fit. Pitt officials and UPMC officials are really jazzed about their ownership and their master-mindedness.

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Sports Coaching Prime Mission

As a coach, one of the biggest responsibilities within the art and science of coaching, is to allow the athletes to NOT beat themselves. Sometimes a team is beaten by superior competition. Other times a team gets beat by its own actions. This is sportscaster's jargon, but the idea does make sense.

On a more technical note, in the sport of swimming, coaches instruct the athletes to get out of their own way. You can't flail around and go at the highest speeds.

The principles apply to Pitt, sad to say. Pitt's loss is Pitt's fault. UPMC tripped and did itself a face plant.

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Pitt has other Options -- Better Solutions Loom Much Larger

To build a Sports Performance development, UPMC should be seek 50 acres. Or, UPMC should grow where it is now. Both are talked about here.

UPMC Could Move to Quarry Field, Behind UPMC South Side Hospital

UPMC owns South Side Hospital now. There is plenty of room behind South Side Hospital that would be a perfect location for a UPMC expansion.

UPMC has an employee parking lot behind the rail-road tracks behind the Brew House and UPMC South Side Hospital. That is land that UPMC already owns. UPMC has employees park in that lot and get onto a bus to go to Oakland for their day jobs.

Directly across the street from the UPMC parking lot, and directly behind UPMC South Side Hospital is another parking lot that is the home of Courier Express delivery trucks. That small business owner would be willing to sell the property to UPMC for the right price.

Further behind UPMC South Side Hospital is Neville Ice Rink. The Ice Rink has a large parking lot.

Further behind Neville Ice Rink is another open space, park area, Quarry Field. This is the current home to the South Side Sabers youth football teams. A football field no less. This has lights, and room for expansion by taking over the ancient swing set at the far end of the property or taking over the crumbled basketball courts, nearer to Neville.

South Side Hospital Upside

Dr. Freddie Fu operates in a hospital. Surgery isn't going to be done at the Sports Performance Center -- unless the Sports Performance Center is moved to a hospital location. We can get the best of both world for everyone by putting the proposed UPMC site next to the existing UPMC site.

Dr. Fu, if he and his fellow doctors, move into the LTV site, they will need to drive to the hospital to do their other work. Why not position Dr. Fu and the medical team next to a hospital and get more for less?

Capacity is Ready at South Side Hospital

South Side Hospital was a community hospital that was purchased by UPMC in recent years. South Side has infrastructure and capacity to spare. The hospital was designed in another era and has many less beds than what it can handle. The S.S. Hospital could double in its capacity, if not triple, without needing an extra operating or examination room as it is under-utilized.

Lower Costs at South Side vs. Oakland for Operational Procedures

South Side Hospital has better economics for charges for services such as operations. To operate or do a procedure in an Oakland hospital costs a certain amount, and the costs are less at South Side Hospital. If South Side Hospital gets better utilization, then the citizens, health care, city employees and so on are going to benefit.

Others have said that Pitt should build a new stadium or the new convocation on the LTV site. It is a nice idea, but it doesn't work. There is not enough space in a square, round or rectangle condition to allow for those types of facility.